Latin and Greek letter problems

[Giorgos_Arnakis]

AB CD E FG H I J K L MN O P QR S T UVW XY Z -english alphabet- duh
ΑΒ ΓΔ Ε Ζ Η Θ Ι Κ Λ ΜΝ Ξ Ο Π Ρ Σ ΤΥ Φ Χ Ψ Ω -greek alphabet-

Also
abcdefghijklmn o pqrstu v wxyz
αβγδεζηθικλμ ν ξ ο πρστυφχψω

Εnglish A B E H I K M N O P T X Y Z o v
Greek Α Β Ε Ζ Η Ι Κ Μ Ν Ο Ρ Τ Υ Χ ν ο

If manager.io uses unicode or html-code then
The Latin Capital Letter A is U+0041 or &#65’; and looks like A for english
The Greek Capital Letter Alpha is U+0391 or &#913’; for greek and looks like Α again.
don’t know if that helps, it was an example that might help.

These letters in bold, are the same as you can see.when adding new names/products/invoices etc, create a problem as we use english letters for codes,
greek letters for addresses,names,descriptions of items.

Example

Item code X32548 I used english X
Item code Χ32548 I used greek X

And now it is impossible to use Χ that on the search.
To know if you used the product name to avoid duplicates
To insert a product in invoices and a list of other problems

Those letters due to their similarity should be interchangeable in search, and drop down menus.
It will really skyrocket how fast one could work with manager, and avoid errors of having a duplicate item, with the only difference having the letter in the “other” language.

Best Regards

[lubos]

Manager does support case insensitivity in Greek alphabet.

But that’s as far as it goes. I agree, it is a surprising issue when typing characters which are the same looking but not exactly the same as per Unicode.

I think at some point we will just need to build some interchangeable table for search purposes.

[Giorgos_Arnakis]

Case insensitivity works great indeed up to a point.

There is one thing that forces greeks how to use the program though, that makes case insensitivity rather missing.
Intonation, and I might have to make some changes by removing tones on the translation platform to make it more usable.

The thing is that in greek, when you type small letters, you ought to use intonation, while in Capital letters you shouldn’t.
Example
a) Απόθεμα
b) Αποθεμα
c) ΑΠΟΘΕΜΑ
A is different from b and c, but b and c is the same.

It is the same word, but with small letters looks better, and thats why ofcourse they are used on the translation.

Tones though makes it rather difficult to use in search boxes. They should be ignored at least there.

That is because on search function greeks and whoever else uses intonation is probably forced to type everything in
capital letters to gain speed of search.

[lubos]

@Giorgos_Arnakis

I might have to make some changes by removing tones on the translation platform to make it more usable.

Keep strings on translation portal the way they are correct.

Could you make a list of characters in Greek alphabet and how they should be converted to lowercase Latin alphabet for search purposes? I will add this to Manager so search will work the way it is generally expected.

[Jon]

I’m no expert on this, but it seems like this could become a bit of a slippery slope. How do you define equivalence in letters? Is it based on the character’s appearance or its transliteration? For example, is Greek P matched with Latin P (by appearance) or R (by sound)? Does Greek Δ match with Latin D because it sounds the same and kind of looks almost the same?

There may be a customary way to do the matching for Greek, but how does it apply to Cyrillic? Could it be that the custom for Greek is to match by appearance, but for Cyrillic the custom is to match by sound, for example? Would Cyrillic B match with Latin B or V? Would Cyrillic B match with Greek B, for that matter?

And would someone else say that Hebrew א sort of looks like an X when printed so it should match and sort of looks like a K when handwritten so it should match that too, or that Hebrew ס looks like O in some fonts but not at all – even though none of these “matches” sound alike. And do you match Japanese エ to the Latin I and also to the Greek I? And so on and so on.

You can see where this go…

[Giorgos_Arnakis]

The problem doesn’t arise on latin letters that “KINDA” look like the Greek letters. But on the ones that look EXACTLY the same.

Lets say I am typing a word with greek letters.

For capital letters, there are exactly 11 words with a combination 11 of those 14 capital letters.
31 words using 10 of those 14 letters
125 words using 9
349 words using 8
658 words using 7
847 words using 6
844 words using 5
550 words using 4
165 words using 3
3569 words in total

And these are the words that ACTUALLY exist.
I am not talking about Word-Number Combination such as X3434 or A3235 or H45345 which …ok you get i.t

If I start typing a word I will only see the mistake of wrong picked up language when I hit a letter that doesn’t look greek.
Such as: ΚΑΛΗΜΕΡΑ = KALHMERA
KA L HME R A English
ΚΑ Λ ΗΜΕ Ρ Α Greek

The first indication that the word I typed, while I was looking at my computer, that told me I am typing in english was when I hit the L . In greek I would see the letter Λ.

If there ARE Latin only characters, I can quickly find out whats wrong.
Imagine what happens if I have a product named
“ΚΑΡΤΑ ΓΡΑΦΙΚΩΝ NVIDIA XG4400 ME TZAMI”

What if I wanted to search all products with “ΜΕ ΤΖΑΜΙ” ?
Is this in Greek or in English? I typed it in English, because I forgot to change the language after typing NVIDIA XG4400 , right after. So I would search it in Greek.

[Jon]

Wow, this is clearly a huge problem. As I wrote, I’m certainly no expert.

This obviously comes up across all kinds of software and isn’t Manager-specific. Now that you’ve demonstrated the breadth of the problem, I’m surprised that Microsoft and Apple haven’t dealt with it on an OS level. My point here was just that starting with matching A with capital alpha in searches sounds straightforward until you dig deeper and realize that the problem doesn’t have clear boundaries.

Anyway, good luck.

[Giorgos_Arnakis]

If I understand correctly this is the asked task.

I might not be able to answer it in one go.

I would need more information like

-Do you want to learn only about the problematic characters?
-All the characters?
-Only the Capital letters or the small ones too?
-Also do you want me to prepare a table with phonetic equivalents known as Greeklish?
Or error-free equivalents for the problematic characters only in the case of not paying attention to keyboard language?
Because phonetically things will go really different.
-Also do you want me to cover all those cases?
-Is this something that can change in the future to cover minor mistakes?

Anyway I do believe I covered most cases below. Feel free to fill me up with more information on what I should cover.

Since there are some letters with no equivalents in English or Greek alphabet, some attention is required.
Α = a
Β = b (it sounds like the english “v” but the english “v” in greek sounds like N, n) (Google used Both English B,b and V,v for greek B)
Γ = g
Δ = d
Ε = e (Google uses english e, i , y)
Ζ = z
Η = h (Η in greek sounds like greek Ι and greek Υ.) (Google uses english e, i , y)
Θ = th (the same key strikes for “u” but Θ sounds like th (Check more info below perhaps)
Ι = i (Google uses english e, i , y)
Κ = k
Λ = l
Μ = m
Ν = n The small letter of “Ν” is “ν” and the same key strikes for “n” in english"
Ξ = the same key strikes for “j” but sounds like “ks” or even english x (Check below) Google uses ks for correcting suggestions
Ο = o
Π = p
Ρ = r
Σ = s
Τ = t
Υ = y (The small letter of “Υ” is “υ” that the same key strikes for “u” )
Φ = f
Χ = x (sounds like ch)
Ψ = “c” is the same key in latin, but “ps” is the only equivalent. ( but it sounds like ps) MORE INFO: Google handles suggestions of Ps like Ψ rather than c
Ω = o sounds like greek o english o ,but if someone uses latin to type greek words and wants to seemingly spell it correctly uses w

More information might be helpful.

The greeks have developed a system to use latin characters to communicate with greek words when they faced an OS that they couldn’t add the greek language, but this can’t be used officialy but only in text sms messages.

The following means : Goodmorning, how do you do?
There are 3 different ways from top to bottom in usage.
Greeklish 1: kalimera, pos iste? (phonetic)
Greeklish 2: kalhmera, pws eiste; (reconciling with spelling rules)
“byzantine” variant: kalhmepa, nws eicte;
And…
Typing as if the keyboard layout were set to Greek, when it is actually set to US English: Kalhm;era, p;vw e;isteq

But this is completely and utterly unacceptable in formal writing, and is considered the worst of all practices.

Alphabets
ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVXWYZ
ΑΒΓΔΕΖΗΘΙΚΛΜΝΞΟΠΡΣΤΥΦΧΨΩ

Problematic letters that OPENED this discussion
Α Β Ε Ζ Η Ι Κ Μ Ν Ο Ρ Τ Υ Χ ν ο

Keyboard keys
English Capital | English small = Greek Capital | Greek small | Greek small with tone | Greek small with dialitika ¨ |With dialitika and tone.(solvents?) like this ΅
Aa = Αα ά
Bb = Ββ
Cc = Ψψ
Dd = Δδ
Ee = Εε έ
Ff = Φφ
Gg = Γγ
Hh =Ηη ή
Ii = Ιι ί ϊ ΐ
Jj = Ξξ
Kk = Κκ
Ll = Λλ
Mm = Μμ
Nn = Νν
Oo = Οο ό
Pp = Ππ
Qq = :;
Rr = Ρρ
Ss = Σσ
Tt = Ττ
Uu = Θθ
Vv = Ωω ώ
Xx = Χχ
Ww = ΅ς
Yy = Υυ ύ ϋ ΰ
Zz = Ζζ

[lubos]

@Giorgos_Arnakis, let’s fix the issue where Greek character looks identical to Latin character yet they are different characters from Unicode point of view.

So this is the list of problematic characters:

Α Β Ε Ζ Η Ι Κ Μ Ν Ο Ρ Τ Υ Χ ν ο

Correct?

[Giorgos_Arnakis]

A B E H I K M N O P T X Y Z o v

• Greek Capital Letter Alpha = Α
  Unicode number: U+0391

• Greek Capital Letter Beta = Β
  Unicode number: U+0392

• Greek Capital Letter Epsilon = Ε
  Unicode number: U+0395

• Greek Capital Letter Zeta = Ζ
  Unicode number: U+0396

• Greek Capital Letter Eta = Η
  Unicode number: U+0397*

• Greek Capital Letter Iota = Ι
  Unicode number: U+0399

• Greek Capital Letter Kappa = Κ
  Unicode number: U+039A

• Greek Capital Letter Mu = Μ
  Unicode number: U+039C

• Greek Capital Letter Nu = Ν
  Unicode number: U+039D

• Greek Capital Letter Omicron = Ο
  Unicode number: U+039F

• Greek Capital Letter Rho = Ρ
  Unicode number: U+03A1

• Greek Capital Letter Tau = Τ
  Unicode number: U+03A4

• Greek Capital Letter Upsilon = Υ
  Unicode number: U+03A5

• Greek Capital Letter Chi = Χ
  Unicode number: U+03A7

• Greek Small Letter Omicron = ο
  Unicode number: U+03BF

• Greek Small Letter Nu = ν
  Unicode number: U+03BD

Yes those are the problematic ones.
While you are at it, could you add to the table the small intonated as well to check on the non intonated in search and vice versa?

• Α = α , ά
  Greek Small Letter Alpha
  Unicode number: U+03B1
  Greek Small Letter Alpha with Tonos
  Unicode number: U+03AC

• Ι = ι ί ϊ ΐ
  Greek Small Letter Iota
  Unicode number: U+03B9
  Greek Small Letter Iota with Tonos
  Unicode number: U+03AF
  Greek Small Letter Iota with Dialytika
  Unicode number: U+03CA
  Greek Small Letter Iota with Dialytika and Tonos
  Unicode number: U+0390

• Υ = υ ύ ϋ ΰ
  Greek Small Letter Upsilon
  Unicode number: U+03C5
  Greek Small Letter Upsilon with Tonos
  Unicode number: U+03CD
  Greek Small Letter Upsilon with Dialytika
  Unicode number: U+03CB
  Greek Small Letter Upsilon with Dialytika and Tonos
  Unicode number: U+03B0

• Ο = ό
  Greek Small Letter Omicron
  Unicode number: U+03BF
  Greek Small Letter Omicron with Tonos
  Unicode number: U+03CC

• Η = η ή
  Greek Small Letter Eta
  Unicode number: U+03B7
  Greek Small Letter Eta with Tonos
  Unicode number: U+03AE

• Ε = ε έ
  Greek Small Letter Epsilon
  Unicode number: U+03B5
  Greek Small Letter Epsilon with Tonos
  Unicode number: U+03AD

• Ω = ω ώ
  Greek Small Letter Omega
  Unicode number: U+03C9
  Greek Small Letter Omega with Tonos
  Unicode number: U+03CE

[ntrim]

With the latest version (16.3.89) something strange happens.

Searching for something (Customer Names, Items etc in drop down lists or search field) in Greek is problematic. Other times works and other times won’t.

I’m trying to determine what’s going on…

[lubos]

I made one change in 16.3.89 in relation to Greek characters but it should be non-intrusive. Basically, Greek characters:

A B E H I K M N O P T X Y Z o v

Are converted to Latin characters. This way both Greek and Latin characters which look the same can be used interchangeable.

@ntrim, are you able to reproduce this issue in a test file?

[ntrim]

I will try later today.

[Giorgos_Arnakis]

VERSION 16.3.89

Seems pretty good to me!
@lubos Thank you. Thanks a lot.

Buuuuut, now on to the problems.

I created two products named “δοκιμη” but the one with intonation “δοκιμή”
I find it by typing “δοκιμη”
But not with “ΔΟΚΙΜΗ” which are the capital letters
and not with δοκιμή which are the small with intonation on η
So this change , fixed the Greek - Latin interchangability, but broke the Capital Small letter one.

Partial Search

Search with word intonated

Search without intonation

Search with Capital letters

[ntrim]

With existing files (created with previous versions) I can’t find anything in Greek (Windows 8.1). All data are in capital letters.

In a file created with version 16.3.89 works better (OS X El Capitan, see screenshots).

[lubos]

Check the version 16.3.90… case-sensitivity should be fixed too.

[Giorgos_Arnakis]

Can we add interchangeability to those “groups” as well?
This will apply to things like selecting accounts in invoices and everything else ofcourse.
So even if someone uses for example english “I” he will get results of all greek “Ι” like Ι , 'Ι , Ϊ, ι, ί, ϊ, and finally ΐ
And ofcourse the same if he uses the greek “ι” he would get the english “i” ofcourse

Greek Unicode of all greek letters that get intonation
Α Unicode number: U+0391
Ά Unicode number: U+0386
α Unicode number: U+03B1
ά Unicode number: U+03AC

Ε Unicode number: U+0395
Έ Unicode number: U+0388
ε Unicode number: U+03B5
έ Unicode number: U+03AD

Η Unicode number: U+0397
Ή Unicode number: U+0389
η Unicode number: U+03B7
ή Unicode number: U+03AE

Ο Unicode number: U+039F
Ό Unicode number: U+038C
ο Unicode number: U+03BF
ό Unicode number: U+03CC

Ι Unicode number: U+0399
Ί Unicode number: U+038A
ι Unicode number: U+03B9
ί Unicode number: U+03AF
ϊ Unicode number: U+03CA
ΐ Unicode number: U+0390

Υ Unicode number: U+03A5
Ύ Unicode number: U+038E
υ Unicode number: U+03C5
ύ Unicode number: U+03CD
ϋ Unicode number: U+03CB
ΰ Unicode number: U+03B0

Ω Unicode number: U+03A9
Ώ Unicode number: U+038F
ω Unicode number: U+03C9
ώ Unicode number: U+03CE

and a consonant

Σ Unicode number: U+03A3
σ Unicode number: U+03C3
ς Unicode number: U+03C2 ← This one is the same as the others, but one difference. It is used only as the last letter of the word if the last letter is “σ” and it is NOT capital. “ς” is used only in exchange of “σ”. Κορμοσ , is written as Κορμος . So if this , restriction, is not possible, being interchangable in search will work like a gem anyway

Thank you for your hard work and patience and support!
Regards

[ntrim]

Seems to be OK now. Thanks!

[Giorgos_Arnakis]

@lubos So, this feature was removed in past updates?
All the problems that were fixed are back.

I am guessing you will reintroduce it sometime later with the index files you were talking about?

It was a great selling point!

[lubos]

@Giorgos_Arnakis, I’ve explained my position here Greek Intonation in Search

This interchangeability has been removed for now. Sorry about that. For now I don’t recommend mixing Latin and Greek letters since some of them really look very similar as you’ve pointed out.