a few questions/suggestions re Special accounts and tracking codes
- Do you think a Tracking report codes will be added to the reports list?, not just tracking code exception report.
reason I have a client who has rental properties but not part of the Trust business structure but Partnership .
They have income and expenses related to these rental properties coming in and being paid from the Trust business account so for all purposes Beneficiary loan movements in the Bal Sheet . I had the idea to set up a control account for these transactions and use special accounts to name the purpose eg net rental income, Rental Rates, Rental Body Corp etc and have set up tracking codes as the name of each rental property . This seems to work well but if I have a cheque or payment that relates to multiple properties like rates paid to a Council I can’t get the individual amount related to the rental property. If a tracking code report was available this would eliminate my problem but it is all related to the Bal Sheet.
I also find it difficult to get a clear picture of the income and expenditure by individual rental property as things stand at the moment.
- As for Special Accounts - Great ( Outstanding) feature by the way , if I go to summary page which has been customised by date range and click on the Bal Sheet Loan ( Control Account) that relates to special accounts I find that the list presented is all entries to date , not filtered in anyway . Is this possible to do?.. I am thinking I will need to journal the total costs of the special accounts out to the General Benf Loan account at year end so they can start fresh each financial year so that is not an issue but to get YTD reports or customised reports doesn’t seem possible at present.
I know this is an unusual application of special accounts but would work really well if the Tracking code report was able to be done by date range on the Bal sheet accounts, problem solved for me and I hope for others.
Same can be said for using Special accounts to track personal expenditure as say Drawing Control account being special accounts being itemised eg Rates, Elect , Food . I can’t get this information by Date range easily . I don’t have tacking codes on this Manager file , however the lack of being able to report by date range is a hindrance but not unworkable.If I did use tracking codes I would think the same as above paragraph would apply.
Let me say , I think what is being achieved with manager is outstanding. I just hope these few points can help it be even better.
You are missing a couple of major points:
- Special accounts are balance sheet accounts, so you can’t use them to track income or expenses.
- All balance sheet accounts are permanent accounts, so they aren’t closed at the end of an accounting period. And they are not subject to date range restrictions like income and expense accounts.
Then separate the two into two businesses as they are separate legal entities, Trying to maintain an entity’s accounts within another entity’s accounts is not workable. Better off using an intercompany current account type structure.
In the Trust accounts, any partnership transactions get posted to the Partnership (Beneficiary) Current Account. In the Partnership accounts those transactions are pick up in the Trust Current Account and allocated per any normal P&L structure.
Doing this will mean that the tracking codes will become available for the Partnership on a per property basis without juggling Special Accounts for purposes that they aren’t proposed for.
Thank you for response.
I agree to both points you have raised , ( in the normal use of these accounts). 100% correct
however my use is not normal in that I will zero the special accounts to the main Benf loan account at year end so it will stay in balance sheet but the Loan Control will be nil and the main Benf loan acc will reflect open bal liability as per financial statements. I am using the special accounts & Control as a means to segregate the Partnership income and expenditure ( for Client) who are the main two beneficiaries and I cant add their personal bank accounts to the Trust Bal Sheet so this is only way forward really. Previously in MYOB this had to shown as other income & other Expenses on P&L and then journal to the Liability account as part of Year end process so then P&L was only Trust Income & Expenses. I could do the same in manager but the special accounts /Control account function is unique to Manager and I was wanting to keep the income and expenses on the Bal Sheet for information purposes and reporting purposes much cleaner all round in my view.
Also in regards to the Drawing or equity use of the Control / Special accounts , my point above remain valid. I am not shifting the transaction from their present reporting location just segregating it for person information point of view which I think was partly the whole idea of the special accounts in the first place.
I still believe the need for both features I originally mentioned would enhance the use of Control /Special accounts and the tracking codes to Bal sheet would be most useful.
I know you have replied in best interests from a strict accounting application of what I have requested but this is more related to functionality enhancement . If it can’t be done easily for Lubos and his team I fully understand as it is out of the usual but I do believe others would use it for more or less similar purposes and the reporting enhancements would prove more than helpful.
Thank you for contributing , always short and to the point and accurate.
Again your reply is 100% possible and applicable in the truest accounting terms and appropriate in lots of ways.
What I am trying to achieve is to minimise the paperwork, not increase it. I fully understand they are two separate legal entities but practical wise in far as accounting goes they are so interrelated that it is not as clear cut as you have proposed as a solution.
I see the special accounts as being their for disclosure, that disclosure can be for any purpose. If the client has done this for 20 years paying for expenses and placing funds into this one account and also uses the credit cards for Personal, Partnership & Trust expenditure. It seems a very logical use of the special accounts to me and if the filter by date or by name or rental property name in this case which is what my tracking codes are , had not been a issue , this request could be totally ignored. The only real issue was paying a single payment that related to multiple properties I found highlighted the shortcomings or more correctly an unforeseen result when reporting, at least in this instance.
I am still of the belief this would be beneficial and still agree with you and Tut 100% . If you could see the actual file , you would be more open to the request , your responses have been form a strict accounting viewpoint, mine is from the actual day to day data entry which by the way the client does most of , I just have to check the entries so to speak , having said that. Searched hard for a way to report the rental properties net result and couldn’t do it, I could revert back to the previous software methodology but to me that was so cumbersome it was something I wanted to avoid at all costs if possible.
Thanks for your input , good advice just not really the purpose of the request.
Please keep in mind , in this instance it is Income & Exps from a related entity to the Trust , what if it was all related to the trust and all related to the Bal Sheet or Equity like the Drawing control account I mentioned . It does prove worth thinking about regardless of application. The Special Accounts/ Control accounts was a very innovative step in the program , I am just trying to fully utilsie that step.
There is no increased paper work by segregating the accounting, a single rate notice remains a single rate notice. Perhaps there would be increased transaction processing but the clarity provided would far exceed any manipulation of Special Accounts. By your own admission “if I have a cheque or payment that relates to multiple properties like rates paid to a Council I can’t get the individual amount related to the rental property” the Special Accounts fail, yet by utilising current accounts that problem disappears. As previously stated, trying to get a functioning P&L within a Balance Sheet structure. This is not “strict accounting” as you imply but very very basic accounting. You only have to read through this forum to see that I’m all for creative workable solutions which achieve a management result and these have been challenged by various purest as concepts outside their conventional acceptance - however even I can’t extend myself to this usage of the Special Accounts - the modelling doesn’t stack up.
Special Accounts are there for sub-analysis not disclosure purposes and there is a difference - sub-analysis is internal and disclosure is external of the organisation.
You may think that “practical wise in far as accounting goes they are so interrelated that it is not as clear cut as you have proposed as a solution” Unfortunately, it is that clear cut but your focus remains on a more complicated and obliviously unworkable (paying multiple rates) one. I put it to you that Microsoft, Google, Amazon etc etc would not be doing what you are trying to do and they are far more complex (multi countries) then your “simple” trust / partnership set up.
I am personally aware of one structure involving a master trust with a multiple of sub-trusts owning various businesses and with beneficiaries now extending over three generations and every time there is an addition/subtraction to the family tree various formulas have to be re-jigged - but this is all handled quite efficiently by maintaining each component individually so any new creation or dissolving (trust or business) can be occur without having to deconstruct the entire organisation.
The one problem I find with your solution is that its only focusing on today - the trust and the partnership and putting the apples & oranges in the one basket. What if tomorrow there was some extension to the operations, are you going to be putting the pears into the same basket.
If I was the client, I would hope that my activities are recorded in such a way that the componentry could be simply disassembled and disclosed without having to be reconstructed to get to the same results - if not for divorce then at least for tax return purposes.
Thank you for additional explanation and again you have good points. but again you are seeing this from a way too formal approach. These people don’t want what you are suggesting , they want what I am proposing .
In truth you seem focused on the somewhat unusual side of my request, I see no reference to the fact this all could relate to equity side of things. I am not manipulating the books , or doing something unlawful or un-ethical or sub standard . In your mind, maybe so and and in an ideal world you would be correct. However I have attending hundreds or clients files over the years and all of them pay for things from wrong accounts, more some than others.
All I am asking for is this request be considered for the reasons I raised , I feel as strongly as you do about getting things right but I am not as strongly bound to the implications of this request as you are.Just step back and think about the advantages instead of shooting the messenger.
I have no doubt your points are valid and note worthy but in this case they would like to see if this could happen and for my own Drawing disclose case, I would like to see if this could happen.
I can see now that the Control/Special accounts have been set up. what real difference is there in disclosure or Sub -analysis depends from where you are standing . I am sure Lubos will have his views on it as well . In the end to me and for client … Nothing ventured , nothing gained.
Whatever the outcome I will have appreciated your interest and concerns . In rthe end this is a simple request for what is already in manager to be extended in some ways. Only Lubos and his team can make it happen if they feel it is worth considering.
@hayz, as you have already admitted, what you are doing contradicts several basic accounting principles. What you do with or for your clients is, of course, your own business. But I can tell you with fairly high confidence @lubos is not going to modify the program to allow users to do things like record income and expense transactions in the balance sheet. One of Manager’s underlying design principles is to disallow entries that abuse standard accounting conventions. History shows that when such anomalies have been discovered, they have been fixed very quickly.
Then you have proposed to them something that you can’t deliver - but now propose to Manager.
There is no formality just practicality and I see it as exactly as it is - consolidation within an entity without being consolidation of entities. Have never implied or intended that the conduct was untoward, albeit lazy. If I could model a solution to fit you would be the first to hear, so I’m not shooting the messenger as I can’t find a single advantage (from all possible angles) except for a short cut in processing transactions.
It may seem strange that currently you can allocate tracking codes to BS transactions but you can’t report on them, but that is an unintentional side effort of not having tighter programing controls on the input screen - enter a balance sheet account and tracking codes availability becomes switched off.
The real feature you should be requesting is Consolidation functionality, then you will be able to post across entities within the one transaction - A Trust bank payment could be allocated to a Partnership expense account with the current account entry being either a default (background) transaction or just being an EOY balance day adjustment. Perfect for “paying for things from wrong accounts”.
PS: @lubos - just noticed you can’t apply tracking codes to payslip item “earnings” - so wages of employees in different divisions can’t be allocated to that division.
I am not doing this for my benefit but for Client and Accountant. They are
very small time and don’t need the added formality you have taken the time
to condider and come up with someting ideal as a a solution if it were
important enought to do so.
All i am saying is we can add tracking codes to bal sheet accounts , why
not use that ability?.
You seem to be saying we need to fo more but i am saying what we have now
is fine. I would have to put all these entries to the benificary loan
account with no means of tracking it by renta anyway. The tracking codes
do the job wonderfully if it was posdible to get them a filter on the
account. I am not as concerned about dates but if it could be done then why
I bring you back to my comment on the equity account drawings control
account. I am sure many people, solve traders like myself would like it and
use it if it were possible.
If that ability is just slack control then it shows that the possibilty is
there and if it can prove useful why not use it?
I am impressed with your concern that I may be hindering the accounting
purity of Manager and that is to be considered. If that was the result of
my suggestion then I wouldnt wsnt that as well. Even after all of the above
I still see it as a valid request. Even myob allows job tracking on bal
sheet accounts so this is not something new in lots of ways.
That is possible now within the COA, if you use the Capital Accounts tab in a creative way, not as its default set up. One can create as many analytical (drawings) sub-accounts as you require.
True, but for tracking related balance sheet accounts within the entity - not for merging an external entity’s profit and loss reporting into that entity
[quote=“hayz, post:10, topic:7592”]
I am impressed with your concern that I may be hindering the accounting purity of Manager[/quote]
That concern wasn’t put by me. I am more then happy to challenge the designed concepts as long as the outcomes have practicalities. As I have repeatedly stated - it has nothing to do with formality - as I am solution focused. The adding of a Consolidation feature would not only provide you with a wider/fuller solution for this client but for all clients.
To clarify, by consolidation I mean the ability to post transactions across entities and not necessarily related entities such as subsidiaries. EG Mr Husband and Mrs Wife independently own their businesses but are haphazard as to the bank/credit card used to pay eithers expenses.
Posting directly to the entity avoids the necessity of duplicating the transactions via any current account
here again… thank you for clarifications … I appreciate more now what it
is your are saying I was seeing things differently as to what you wanted to
get across to me. I see now you were outcome focused not just seeing the
the shortcomings of the request.
One important note here …I an not trying to consolidate or merge entities
, they will be treated and processed separately for Tax reporting , my idea
is in no way a request to bring the two into one file . It is more that so
many entries are paid from the Trust account which for them is how they
wish to do things. All I am trying to do is easily pick up such movements
using tracking codes and produce a listing that is meaningful and helpful
to them and the Accountant at any point in the FY. I am not trying to do
the Partnership Financials from within the Trust Bal Sheet , these
movements will be just one part of the whole picture, in this case it is a
To the Drawings Account for myself …I am aware that I could set up as
many sub drawing accounts as I wish but my wish is to have the one control
account and the special accounts as the breakdown. To me this is much
cleaner and logical if it can be set up that way… The only missing element
was the reporting side of Tracking codes.
I do agree the consolidated feature would be the best of the best solution
, however can we ask Lubos to do what so few have done ( accounting
software designers) Big end of town software firms do provide it but at a
high cost to the end user…I am happy to work within the constraints as
they stand . For now and from a cleanness of the COA point of view . I
would like to be able to having tracking codes report with option to
include or exclude Bal Sheet accounts.
Your viewpoints have made me realise there is much to consider in regards
to this request and have taken my simple idea further to how what would be
best for all clients , not just my circumstance. Appreciated; by me and
helpful as well.
It appears then that you would be duplicating the processing, once for the Beneficiaries Loan account analysis and secondly for the financial/taxation reporting.
However, accepting that the fundamentals are to record/analysis the cash transactions via the special accounts then the other coming feature - Custom Reports - could be (?) the solution where you design your own reports.
With the correct adjustments you would have a Drawings control account with reporting with out the need for special accounts or tracking
Quick reply - Yes I was hoping Custom Reports may assist me but I no
programming ability especially SQL related is nil, I didn’t realise it was
not fully functional yet , That was why I thought the tracking codes my
best chance to do something now which seems possible without too much work
to accommodate my suggestion. Yes it is a bit of duplication but in actual
time to get PShip sorted it is saving time.
I am unsure how to achieve the correct adjustments to the Drawings acc but
the special accounts seemed ideal and will work well , just the date
filtering is my only obstacle using them, just a nuisance more than
anything else. They seem to work well otherwise
Thanks Brucanna . You certainly are good at getting to the bottom of
things, seeing the bigger picture and finding the best way to do it.
Well come for the ride and get date filtering thrown in.
- Activate the Capitals Accounts tab.
- Click on Capital Accounts tab and create a New Capital Account - your name
- Go to Settings - COA and create under Equity a Capital Contributed account
- Re-name the Capital Account to Drawings Account - now the equity section looks like this
- Go to Settings - Capital Subaccounts and rename the existing as well as create new drawings classifications.
- Go to Reports - Capital Accounts Summary, enter the dates, edit the title and wallah
Click on the blue figures to drill down for transactions
Looks pretty darn good to me, better than my solution. Thank you so much
:). Another marvellous feature of Manager that was there but I had failed
to see its practical application . Thank you Lubos , Thank you Manager and
Thank you Brucanna. I have enjoyed the ride immensely. The Equity side is
done and dusted. Great messaging as well by the way. your reply would make
a great guide note ( if not already there) .
A part of me still hopes the Tracking codes for Balance sheet will still be
considered, I am sure it would prove helpful in time.
Tracking code column on payslip itself.
Hi @lubos . Any inclination to add the tracking codes to balance sheet?. I can accept outcome if not. Just needed to know if it is being considered. Thank you
@hayz, it cannot be done.
In balance sheet, you can’t cherry-pick debits or credits you want to show because balance sheet must balance. Balance sheet is about absolute account balances as at certain date.
If you are requesting tracking codes for balance sheet, you are doing something wrong. What are you trying to achieve?
Tracking codes on the Balance Sheet could be used to produce sub-Balance Sheets as at a certain date (rather then date range reporting as per the P&L) .
If a Business has two divisions (manufacturing & retail) then the assets and liabilities balances relating to each divisions can be reported separately along with the related P&L tracking codes.
Accounts Receivable/Payables balances could be split on a division basis while maintaining a single BS control account. Similarly for Fixed Assets (etc.) being split on a division basis.
Special Accounts is an alternative but then you double up on the number of BS controls accounts.
Much in the same vein as two subsidiaries being consolidated into one, except the one is being divided rather then consolidated.
However, if @hayz means date range reporting (a la P&L) then its “no”. Having `the option to do General Ledger Transaction reporting - per account - would be the solution here.