I’m using the Desktop version of Manager on macOS Ventura (13.6.4). I recently updated my copy of Manager to 24.4.8.1419, and I just noticed that a new folder has appeared in my Documents folder. The folder is called Manager.io and the only thing in it is a tiny (74 byte) file called ‘data’.
This is bad behaviour for a Mac app. The Documents folder should be reserved for the user to save their documents, not used by apps to save data files and the like.
Is this a bug or new intended behaviour? Is it safe to delete this folder?
Not sure if this is relevant, but another thing that happened when I upgraded to this version is that Manager didn’t know where my data file was. It turned out I didn’t know where it was either! I had long ago moved it to a custom location but I didn’t realise that Manager had (sometime around 2017 it seems), changed it back to ‘~/.local/share/Manager’, and what I thought was my Manager file was now many years out of date. So, I located the current file, moved it back to where I wanted it, and used the ‘Change Folder’ button (that appears at the very bottom of the window when you first open Manager) to get things in sync again.
I assume this is a recent change then? The Manager.io folder only appeared in my Documents folder after a recent update.
As I mentioned, this has long been considered bad practice on the Mac. I’ll quote from the old Apple developer docs:
Don’t Pollute User Space
It is important to remember that the user domain (/Users) is intended for files created by the user. With the exception of the ~/Library directory, your application should never install files into the user’s home directory. In particular, you should never install files into a user’s Documents directory or into the /Users/Shared directory. These directories should only be modified by the user.
Well, I’d argue that businesses that you create in Manager are files created by the user. So not sure what is your interpretation.
You can argue, that data file is not a file created by the user. It’s user preference which should be perhaps in ~/Library/Application Support but I’m really not going to overcomplicate things over single file that is typically less than 100 bytes and only created if you do not want to use default application data folder.
The folder named Manager.io is not a folder that I created. Manager put it there without my permission. Now if I can’t even delete it without Manager losing track of the path to my data file, this isn’t a grey area open to personal interpretation. Manager is clearly breaking the ‘Don’t Pollute User Space’ rule.
Overcomplicate things for who? For the user or for yourself? Imagine every app decided it was okay to do this. My Documents folder would be an unusable mess!
The file size has nothing to do with it. It’s about respecting the user’s autonomy over their Documents folder.
I don’t know if Apple has current documentation on this, but this archived page explains various Library directories and their purposes. It says that Application Support contains ‘files that your app creates and manages on behalf of the user and can include files that contain user data.’ So yes, that sounds like the right default location to me.
Personally I do like the option of saving my data in a folder of my choice, but again, Manager should store the path to that folder in its preferences/settings, and these files should also be in the Library, hidden from the user.
@Karl, maybe you did not understand what @Lubos was explaining. The Manager.io folder you are referring to used to save and use Manager Data and not the Application, which is ion the Applications folder. As soon as you create a business in Manager it will save that Business file in the Manager.io folder because it in essence is a document same as a spreadsheet or word document.
If you do not want Manager.io to create such folder then it can only be part of the Manager Applications folder (i.e. Library). As user I appreciate that Manager stores its data outside of the Applications folder by default.
@eko, I think I understand exactly what Lubos is saying, I just don’t happen to agree with him.
I don’t quite agree with that. There are some apps which leave it entirely up to the user to create, save and manage documents, and a user may create hundreds of such documents. Your spreadsheet and word processor examples fall clearly into that category. There are others which, in Apple’s language, manage user data ‘on behalf of the user’, and that data is typically stored in some kind of database (though it needn’t be). A diary app, or a project management app, or even an email client might fall into this category, as does an accounting app like Manager.
Manager can still give users the option to save their data in a folder of their choosing—that’s fine, and as I just said in my previous comment, I like this option. But the key word here is ‘choose’. Apps should never enforce the folder structure within the user’s Documents folder.
That’s not correct. The Library folder we’re talking about is inside the user’s home folder, not within the Applications folder. (There’s also a system-wide Library folder, but again, it has no relation to the Applications folder.)
Well it happens to be what Manager does. You articulated your disagreement very well, but that does not mean that this practice needs changing. It is up to @Lubos to review and see if it makes sense to prompt for a data folder upon installation.
I’m fine with Manager choosing a default data location and not prompting me for a location upon installation—most similar apps do that in my experience. My point is, macOS has appropriate locations for that, and my Documents folder isn’t one of them.
So where would you propose the user generated Manager business data files to be stored? I prefer documents because this is also where my example about Excel and Word but also graphics, databases, and other types of data refers to. We create documents with these applications and the Business files of Manager are no different. We as users create these “documents”. Indeed, maybe MacOS should also create a default Data folder like it does for Documents, Movies, Music, Desktop, Downloads, etc.
Definition meanings of documents include the below and one could argue that Apple arbitrarily omits a dedicated Data folder because it may assume that it is ok to have these application data as part of the default Documents folder:
~/Library/Application Support is probably the most logical default as already discussed.
For the record, I like to save my Manager data within the Documents folder too—not at the root level, and certainly not in a folder called Manager.io, but within a nested business admin folder. As I said, I like the ability to choose a custom location, but if it’s going anywhere in Documents it has to be my choice.
How many spreadsheet and graphics apps have you used that save your documents inside a folder the app creates, with a folder and file name the app chooses, and without telling you what its doing?
If Lubos considers Manager a document-based app (like Excel, Word, Illustrator, etc), then it needs to behave like one. The File menu should have commands like ‘Open’ and ‘Save’ and ‘Save As…’. Ridiculous you say? Yes, it is ridiculous because most users have only one business and therefore only ever need to create one file. Manager is fundamentally an app for managing data, not documents.
There’s nothing stopping you from creating a ‘Data’ folder in your home directory if that makes sense to you. Apple’s default folders are just that—defaults which probably work well for most people. I happen to add a ‘Books’ folder in my home folder, where I store books, articles and other reference material. I don’t put them in Documents, because in my mind the Documents folder is for stuff I’m working on. (That includes data-based documents like spreadsheets BTW, so a separate ‘Data’ folder doesn’t make any sense to me.)
While this may be an interesting discussion (I admit, I do get a little geeky about file organisation!), it’s all slightly off-topic. The main point of the thread is this: all folders within your home folder (except the Library folder) belong to you, and you should have absolute autonomy over what goes there. To quote Apple again, ‘your application should never install files into the user’s home directory’.
There are good reasons for this. Firstly, some users (like myself) are quite particular about how they organise their files. I don’t want apps littering my home or Documents folder with whatever they like. Secondly, it protects the user from themselves. The Library folder is hidden by default, so they can’t go, ‘Eww, there’s some dodgy looking file I don’t recognise in here—I think I might delete it.’
Manager isn’t the only misbehaving app. Adobe is a shocker with this stuff. It adds a ‘Creative Cloud Files’ folder to your home folder, ‘Adobe’ and ‘AdobeGCInfo’ folders to the /Users/Shared folder, and those are just the ones you can see. It spreads all sorts of stuff through the filesystem—not unlike a virus in many ways. But Adobe is so big and bad, I don’t bother giving them feedback anymore. The fact that I’m giving Manager this feedback is actually a small sign of respect—even if I dare to disagree with its guru on the public forum.
